Welcome to the Bags Vs. Juice Bake-Off. Version 1.03

The info here was gleaned from the Mini-truck mailing list. The goal here is to (hopefully) do away with this particular war which was fought on three different occasions during the first 6 months that the mini-truck list was in on-line.

Contributors to this page include:

Rob Rodell toofknlo@hotmail.com

Michael Fe_Benito mbenito@hawaii.edu

Kevin E. Whipps kewhipps@netzone.com

Eric Reed froggy@cyberback.com

Nic Morel anmorel@mpks.net

What is the Difference?

BAGS: Air power like filling up a balloon.
JUICE: Fluid power like your truck's brakes.

Ease of installation:

Installing the mounts for the bags or juice is about the same... Using minimum of 1/4" steel and welding it to the frame to hold the suspension.
JUICE: With the hydros you basicly make a top mount and modify the factory lower mount and you're done. Upgrading system and wiring takes a bit more knowledge and experience.

BAGS: If the bags rub on anything they will blow out in short order. You have to worry about clearance. Just their diameter makes them more difficult to install than hydros. Running air line, wiring, and upgrading can be done with very little previous knowledge and experience.

Ease of maintainence:

BAGS: Drain the tank once a year to get rid of any water that might be in the system. Check monthly to make sure nothing is rubbing.

JUICE: The biggest thing is charging batteries. You should replace the seals once a year. You also need to check the water in the batteries and the oil in the pumps monthly to make sure they're not low.

Cleanliness of Installed Components.

JUICE: Hydraulic rams, multiple batteries, wiring and tubing. Usually mounted in the bed. A well installed system will only have leaks in the cylinders, and that's only when a seal is bad. If the fittings are put together correctly, you should be LEAK FREE. A well installed system can be dressed up to look like a million bucks!

BAGS: Airtank, pump, and tubing, most of which mounts under the bed easily. Even at it's best it doesn't have the same visual impact that a well built hydraulic system has.

Limitations

BAGS: much less lift than a hydraulic cylinder. In a typical install you get around 7-8" of lift. If want more lift you have to be more creative. You can change lifting points or make cantilever systems and up the lift but you normally lose load capacity.

JUICE: The quality of the components which go in your truck are the critical factor. There is plenty of junk hydro equipment on the market. With poor quality hardware the pumps will break all the time, and you will have tons of other problems. In a typical install you with 12" cylinders you get 12" of lift.

Drawbacks:

JUICE: extra work is that you normally have to build a "rack" of some sort to hold the batteries and pumps, then there is the wiring which is also more than with bags. Hydros will make a mess. You will have oil leaks that may leave puddles and get your undercarriage oily.

BAGS: 2-4 minutes for air tanks to fill, precise mounting, limit of height, and load capacity. Pretty damn hard to pull a 3 wheeler with airbags.

Cost:

BAGS: Average price $1800 and up for a bag install shocks, and all hardware. (4 bags, compressor, tank, controller, and all fittings)
Prices for a "simple" set up, with "tire inflation" valves no compressor, no Air bottle, are reflected below.
Front "average" (Torsion bar style vehicles) about $600 - includes 2 bags, mounts installed with shocks.
Front "average" (Factory spring style vehicles) about $500 - includes 2 bags, mounts installed with shocks.
Rear "average" $400 - includes 2 bags, mounts installed with lowering blocks and shocks.

JUICE: Approx $2000 for the same drop including all parts for a basic kit and 3 to 4 batteries with multiple switches.

Examples of JUICE Setups:

S-10's, new hombre's, fullsize chevy's: You use the spring you have now, and cut out the top shock mount so that a cylinder can fit into it. Now the cylinder is made up of two parts: The cylinder casing, which holds everything, and the ram. The ram is what actually lifts the truck. Basically the ram is mounted inside the cylinder and fits in there very tightly. On top of the cylinder casing is a threaded hole which accepts a fitting. When fluid is pushed into the cylinder, it builds pressure. This pressure pushes the ram out, and creates lift. Now in those GM rides there is a cup which mounts on the bottom of the ram which fits into the top of the spring. This is called a COIL UNDER setup. Named because the coil is UNDER the ram. Cute, huh? These trucks can ride PERFECT with this setup, and also hop like mothers when they get going.

Nissan and Toyota Nissan trucks are some of the most fun to lift. It's similar to the S-10 in that you cut out the upper shock mount and make it just big enough for a cylinder. Then you put a heims joint on the bottom of the ram. (It's a shock mount) Put the coil over the cylinder (Now that's called COIL OVER) and bolt it in. We've done the front of a Nissan in just under 20 minutes before. Toyotas are similar, but you might have to make a new shock mount for the top.

Isuzu and Mazda are fun ones to do... NOT!... A Mazda truck requires that you cut out the upper control arm such that it won't hit the cylinder when extended. Isuzus also require you to make a new mount, if only to make it tougher.

Examples of BAG Setups:

Mazda's and Nissan's (and any other import with torsion bars) are both a pain, unless you have a plasma cutter, but it can be done with a sawzall and a small grinder and a lot of sawzall blades and grinding wheels.

Before anything, Pull the torsion bars out.

Mazda: the whole frame rail must be cleared off from the bottom to the top of the rail where the bag will be mounted. This includes 3 bumpstop mounts, and any other parts that are left behind. The LOWER shock mounts must be cut out flush with the lower control arm. The sway bar must be removed, along with the mounts for it. Basically, anything that might rub the bag at any extension of it must go.
The lower control arm has a dip that must be flatteded by welding in a small piece of metal so the bag will sit flat on it. The upper shock mount must be cut back to allow for upper control arm clearance. Fenderwells MUST be cut out completely if you wanna lay frame, even with a small wheel/tire combo.

Nissan: essentially the same, except for the following: the Upper shock mount does not need to be cut back, and the lower control arm does not need a piece to make it flat. You only clear the frame rail off up to the point where the upper control arm mounts begin, about halfway down the frame rail. Nissan's are a bit less forgiving about mounting location. You need to get the upper mount as high as possible, but still maintaining bag clearance. You cannot lay frame on a Nissan without a set of dropped spindles. Dropped control arms will not work because of the design of them, you can't mount the bag to them. Fenderwells also need to be cut out completely.

Other resourses on the web

BAGS: Todd Bustillo's MINI-TRUCK Web Page
JUICE: k2 Custom's Hydraulic Handbook